Endo - slight dig at Miura?

[neova]

Was on the EPON US site reading their history/story

http://epongolf.us/story/

then in the "manufacturing expertise" paragraph, they wrote this:

"Endo sticks with the time proven forging method of creating a 1-piece head. Other leading brands use another approach. They purchase a raw forged body without a hosel on it. The hosel is spin welded into place to create a 2-piece head that appears like a 1-piece design. While spin welding offers flexibility on the manufacturing side such as varying the club’s offset, it also leads to a different feel at impact.

Golfers in general prefer the feel of a completely solid 1-piece design. With a 2-piece head the vibration wave at impact passes through a weld zone in the hosel which leads to a different feel at impact. While some players are accustomed to a 2-piece design most golfers prefer the soft feel of the 1-piece forged design used in the EPON heads."

While Miura spin welds to maintain the grain structure of the head, reading the explanation from EPON why a 2-piece forging is less desirable feels like s direct dig at Miura.

Question, have they ever collaborated on a product before? Who makes the Miura Woods/Hybrids?

Edited August 14, 2020 by neova

[gregoire56]

Hah I’m shocked that this has not been pointed out before now, nice find 

Edited August 14, 2020 by gregoire56

[Hutch]

Not sure what the point is here by epon

you can have the best feeling club in the world, but if the design and desire ability has jumped out of the window!!!! Feel and reliability will only last so long.. ..Like the Toyota Camry, great car,  but boring as a s**t unless your a cab driver.

Epon need to pay a new master as in the past. Or find an open window.

[nobmontana]

I don't think Miura irons are inferior to Epon even from a feel perspective.   

As a hobby club builder,  I find Miura hosels the most precisely centered of all heads I've tried in the past.

As Hutchy says, Epon's design seems to be getting worse each model year.   

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by nobmontana

[Haovictor]

After play both Epon 505/305, and Miura TC201, I think I will have to vote that Miura create better iron than Epon now. 

[supo]

Well, i played my miuraisms on sat for the first time in eons  and ill be blowed if theres a  better  thumpier,damp, fuller  feel for me than a crushed   ISM   long iron........the epon af-tour is like golfing in gran class, every game, it dont matter where u hit it, its cup-o-tea ,Marry poppins , cucmber sangwiches   every shot.

like caviar.....poo....swisschoccy, kyoto beeefoo... its simply too pure to  be played every day, ud grow tired of never knowing where u actually hit the ball bec. u cant feel a difference.

at least with miura for me i can play that every day ( if i cud get used to the shape again) oh and  the heads didnt fall off either nor did the hosel  break when i absolutely skypunched a hosel rocket dead sideways at the speed of light on the par 3  second.

i just cant dig  the  square look  anymore tho.

kills me.

back to ( well not  exaclty back to as in regressing , more gaming)  honma  for moi.

the  MB shape  is too pure to ignore

 

[Hutch]

The 75th anniversary releases were about as good as innovative as a cucumber sandwich in an English tea shop. 

I know lets just paint the current releases a different colour to showcase 75 years of Epon mastery...bahaha

 

Unquestionable designs with the best feel you can get.

Simple but intricate and elegant.  

Practically perfect in every way......Thefullquid. 

I would have been happy with any of these in a different finish/modern twist instead of the mindless garbage that was just served showcasing 75 years in the business....

 

 

   

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by hutchy

[John sears]

Miura feel great and forge irons for other oem amd tour players

[gregoire56]

On 9/2/2020 at 6:08 AM, John sears said:

Miura feel great and forge irons for other oem amd tour players

So does Endo (Epon) 

[+TourSpecGolfer]

Miura does not Forge their own heads or finish their own heads.   I've been saying this for a decade.   TADA mfg does their forging and Kyoshin does their finishing. They are 2 piece spin welded heads.  The reason is not tolerance but it is price.  making a 2-D mold ( spin welded ) is far cheaper than a 3-D mold.  They are not the only ones who do this.  Shin-Nihon also does spin welded.  I've been to Tada mfg and they have told me in person they forge for Miura.  I also have their business registration for their foundry that shows Miura does not own it although they have said so in the past.  Tada mfg uses a small press.

ENDO on the other hand is a legit foundry.  I would not even consider the two in the same class.  Keep in mind we pretty much created the new EPON,  they still use the logo and model naming we created for them in  2005/2006.   They use giant Enamoto presses and they have so many capabilities that Miura will never have, this press would not even fit in the Miura factory.

FYI - I have designed for both companies.  

Keep in mind we no longer  sell both brands.  I have no bias and think both companies are watered down and lack soul.  

club masters who carve molds can spot the difference visually with 2 piece forgings.  Its rather snobby but across the board I can tell you that if you take 1 piece vs 2 piece in the EXACT same design 1 piece will tend to feel softer.  

I believe both Titlist and Taylormade stopped using Miura once they figured out the heads were spin welded.

Also worth noting is that Endo does not grind they are mold/polish,   Miura kinda does but it's mostly polishing to shape.  KYOEI grinds.

Here is my bias - KYOEI.  They forge, grind, finish and do all steps in house.  Epon and ENDO are not capable of all steps in house.  While KYOEI  is the least powerful due to management they are the true history of club forging in Japan.

I dont like when people say Miura Forged or Fujimoto Forged because neither of them actually forge.   

All that garble I just said doesn't really matter,  thats just insider info.  So much falls in the hands of the player and their preference and specs, design, shaft etc..

 

 

[neova]

Thanks Chris for the insight! I have owned irons from Miura, EPON, and various Kyoei-forged heads (Vega/J.Lindnerg, United, Yururi, etc) but have not tried the current Kyoei models yet. Kyoei heads does feel softer while miura/EPON were clickier.

At the end of the day it's all about marketing and selling a story to justify the price. 

[Hutch]

For someone like myself...They all do pretty much the same thing if you pick like for like in any good quality brand in the same set up....Which i think is probably more important in way of performance.

Like most things in life, I believe in good quality product with great design and finish, that is not about performance, its about the way it makes you feel when you use it.

Its this feeling alone that is the defining factor in what gear I will go for. 

[justin1287]

On 8/20/2020 at 8:49 AM, hutchy said:

Not sure what the point is here by epon

you can have the best feeling club in the world, but if the design and desire ability has jumped out of the window!!!! Feel and reliability will only last so long.. ..Like the Toyota Camry, great car,  but boring as a s**t unless your a cab driver.

Epon need to pay a new master as in the past. Or find an open window.

What Epon models you like the most?

[justin1287]

On 8/30/2020 at 12:14 AM, nobmontana said:

I don't think Miura irons are inferior to Epon even from a feel perspective.   

As a hobby club builder,  I find Miura hosels the most precisely centered of all heads I've tried in the past.

As Hutchy says, Epon's design seems to be getting worse each model year.   

 

What Epon models you like the most?

[nobmontana]

5 hours ago, justin1287 said:

What Epon models you like the most?

I've owned the AF-301,  SUS-316 and AF-505 (just 4 & 5)  in the past and I liked the SUS-316 the best.   Compact cavity back with great feel off the face. 

Shape wise,  I actually did not love Epon's head shape. 

[Hutch]

On 3/18/2021 at 10:29 AM, justin1287 said:

What Epon models you like the most?

I like a lot of the earlier stuff. P1. 301 and SUS are probably top of the list

RF 551 were a great design but the feel was a bit clicky on the pocket cavity longer irons. Nice shape. 

I think a lot of Cavity back hand finished clubs will look a bit ordinary these days if you are tuned in to full CNC forgings. But the beauty of a hand finished forging is in its self the essence of JDM forged irons. CNC mastery is on a completely different level in design and the realisation of it.

Is one better than the other, probably....But it depends on how you look at it.

Its like comparing a Pigani Zonda with a Lexus LFA...When you look at the nuts and bolts....Both exquisitely made but on different levels of attainment.

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by hutchy

[Hutch]

On 4/8/2021 at 10:44 AM, hutchy said:

I like a lot of the earlier stuff. P1. 301 and SUS are probably top of the list

RF 551 were a great design but the feel was a bit clicky on the pocket cavity longer irons. Nice shape. 

I think a lot of Cavity back hand finished clubs will look a bit ordinary these days if you are tuned in to full CNC forgings. But the beauty of a hand finished forging is in its self the essence of JDM forged irons. CNC mastery is on a completely different level in design and the realisation of it.

Is one better than the other, probably....But it depends on how you look at it.

Its like comparing a Pigani Zonda with a Lexus LFA...When you look at the nuts and bolts....Both exquisitely made but on different levels of attainment.

 

What would you choose and why?