joey3108 Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I've been hearing and reading about open face driver will hit the ball lower for a while by now. I'm just wondering , who the hell said this first? Is it coming from a rumors or legit sources? As far as I know "most" of the tour player like to have the face open so they will have a power fade shot without adjusting their swing. Let's keep a healthy discussion on this issue OK! :) Thanks ! Joe :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyTN Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 In theory it dont make any sense...huh...now if one shuts the face during the downswing maybe...but everytime I leave the face open...= high and right baby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey3108 Posted May 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 In theory it dont make any sense...huh...now if one shuts the face during the downswing maybe...but everytime I leave the face open...= high and right babyOK now you gave at least 1 "correct" example. :)Any body else? This is why I want to know where is the info coming from. Just trying to clear it up so we won't get mislead here. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slicktry Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 The reason why the ball goes lower is b/c the face has been delofted. Vijay's driver is stated as 9.5°, but b/c it is 2° open, it plays to 8.5°. We all know the reason is b/c he has a tendency to hook/pull shots, and this is the cure. One trade-off though is that there is significantly less roll compared to a draw bias driver. God Bless Jer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joey3108 Posted May 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 The reason why the ball goes lower is b/c the face has been delofted. Vijay's driver is stated as 9.5°, but b/c it is 2° open, it plays to 8.5°. We all know the reason is b/c he has a tendency to hook/pull shots, and this is the cure. One trade-off though is that there is significantly less roll compared to a draw bias driver.God Bless Jer OK now explain it to me why! All the tour heads and retails that came to me and I measured them all...The result is that open face tour driver have increased static loft ( for example 9.5* w/ 1*open become 10* or 10.5* ). From hundreds of head ( retail and tour issues ) that came in my shop, I never found an open face driver has been delofted. Especially on Fairway woods. My Smoothie 15* measured at almost 17* w/ 2 * open face. All the retails are pretty much stay true loft.I've measured them w/ http://www.golfworks.com/item_disp.asp?pn=DGCG Just like Johnny said! From technical point of view and common sense, How could the hosel bend open makes the face delofted. BTW, Who told you or where did you got the info from? joe ps: remember, 2 common words in golf : High right and Duck hook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuffVader Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 i think what they mean is that the player himself delofts it during the swing, not that the head is physically delofted. if its sitting open at address and and at impact, its still open and lofted as spec'd. if its sitting open at address and square at impact then the effective loft should be slightly lower. ive some experementing with open/square/closed drivers and found little actual diference, for me anyways. since im always working the ball one way or another, im constanly manipulating the face open or closed. face angle didnt matter, a draw was a draw and a fade was a fade. i think people are getting to worried about face angles. but, thats just me :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemolitionMan Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 OMG!!! I need to find a new club builder. What on earth are you talking about? You are going to confuse people. While your logic holds true based on your garage science, you are discounting the point of the way the club is setup at impact. I will attempt to explain what another caller tried to tell you in VJ's example. VJ has major forearm rotation and hand action through the ball. If I showed you a picture of him just after impact, his hand looks like it is going to fly off the club and is wrist is so torqued you think it's broken. So let's go with the idea that VJ will square the face at impact, no problem, maybe even shut it a bit. I don't know what loft his driver is, but at 9.5* and 2* open, he will actually get an effective loft of 7.5* if impacting with a square face. Why? Because you use loft as you rotate an open faced club into a square position. Keep in mind, loft is measured with the club in the intended start/setup position. So the 9.5 represents the head sitting on the ground with an open face to target. If you rotated the club to square up the face with the target line at address, you just lost loft. Try it, it's easy to see at 2*, not as easy at 1*. The converse is true too for hackers who play closed Callaways or Cobras. If the loft is measured at 9* with a 2* closed face. At address, the driver points left. If you rotated it open 2* to square up to the target, you would notice the loft increasing. This change in loft at impact is more of a driver/fairway wood issue. If you rotated the face slightly open or closed to square up a driver, the face still points at the target. So you are changing effective loft. But try this with a wedge. When you open up a wedge to increase loft for a higher pitch shot or a flop. Where does the face point? Open wedge face points to the right, not to the target, so you adjust your stance to get a ballflight on target. You do not have to do that with driver. So back to the original issue. An open face on the driver in and of itself does not allow for a lower ball flight. But a tour pro swing at impact squares up the face at impact and decreases the loft producing lower ballflight. An amateur hits the high right shot because they cannot rotate fast enough to square up the face at least one more degree than where it started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarVizquel Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I've been hearing and reading about open face driver will hit the ball lower for a while by now. I'm just wondering , who the hell said this first? Is it coming from a rumors or legit sources?As far as I know "most" of the tour player like to have the face open so they will have a power fade shot without adjusting their swing. Let's keep a healthy discussion on this issue OK! :) Thanks ! Joe :) Hey Joe! You and I talked about this before and you thought I was crazy... :wink: The first time I heard this was when I was trying Ping TiSi & TiSi TEC's a few years ago. I was trying to find the right hosel configuration (what a pain!). It never made sense to me. But... I went through about 7 or 8 of these drivers experimenting with different hosels. I can tell you that when I hit two identical drivers and one had an open face while other was square, the open-faced one went lower. I never believed it until I did this testing, but I have believed it ever since then. I still don't completely understand the concept, but think is has something to do with laying the open club behind the ball and subconsciously closing it before you start your swing (NOT during) to be perpendicular to the target line. Regards, Don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ox Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Surely if bending a driver open does not change the actual loft, then a player squaring the face would not change the loft either... Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeilwerthSX90R Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I think this echoes what DuffVader was saying. When a driver is closed at impact -- compared to its natural state -- it effectively delofts the club. My guess is that most pros have closed vs. square face at impact --compared to how the club sits a address. So, in order to have a square impact position is to start with a driver that is naturally open at address. Open drivers do not have an effectively lower loft. What they do is allow a square impact position in a swing the closes the face at impact to a position more closed than at address. They facilitate but do not cause delofting the club at impact while allowing the face to be delivered squarely to the ball. I hope my explanation made sense. Josh Edit: While I was replying demolition man gave an excellent explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemolitionMan Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Here is VJ just after impact. Major rotation! He needs to start with an open face or he is in big trouble! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKFLY Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Here is VJ just after impact. Major rotation! He needs to start with an open face or he is in big trouble! Great PIC to prove the point - outstanding ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe295 Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 OMG!!! I need to find a new club builder.What on earth are you talking about? You are going to confuse people. While your logic holds true based on your garage science, you are discounting the point of the way the club is setup at impact. I will attempt to explain what another caller tried to tell you in VJ's example. VJ has major forearm rotation and hand action through the ball. If I showed you a picture of him just after impact, his hand looks like it is going to fly off the club and is wrist is so torqued you think it's broken. So let's go with the idea that VJ will square the face at impact, no problem, maybe even shut it a bit. I don't know what loft his driver is, but at 9.5* and 2* open, he will actually get an effective loft of 7.5* if impacting with a square face. Why? Because you use loft as you rotate an open faced club into a square position. Keep in mind, loft is measured with the club in the intended start/setup position. So the 9.5 represents the head sitting on the ground with an open face to target. If you rotated the club to square up the face with the target line at address, you just lost loft. Try it, it's easy to see at 2*, not as easy at 1*. The converse is true too for hackers who play closed Callaways or Cobras. If the loft is measured at 9* with a 2* closed face. At address, the driver points left. If you rotated it open 2* to square up to the target, you would notice the loft increasing. This change in loft at impact is more of a driver/fairway wood issue. If you rotated the face slightly open or closed to square up a driver, the face still points at the target. So you are changing effective loft. But try this with a wedge. When you open up a wedge to increase loft for a higher pitch shot or a flop. Where does the face point? Open wedge face points to the right, not to the target, so you adjust your stance to get a ballflight on target. You do not have to do that with driver. So back to the original issue. An open face on the driver in and of itself does not allow for a lower ball flight. But a tour pro swing at impact squares up the face at impact and decreases the loft producing lower ballflight. An amateur hits the high right shot because they cannot rotate fast enough to square up the face at least one more degree than where it started. Demoman, help me see if I've got this right..so by rotating the clubhead just prior to striking the ball that open face and becomes square to closed which effectively delofts the club making the ball fly lower? so if someone who had a swing where they rotated thru like that started with a square to closed face would they not deloft that club also and hit a low screamer left? this would be because at impact the face would be more closed if I have this correct? then the reason open faces fly lower is not because it's open but because it has been swung in a manner which effectively closes up the face at impact? and why most guys can't hit open faces anywhere but high right is because they don't rotate enough thru impact... I am confused because it seems to me that if you can hit an open face lower because you deloft it during the swing then doesn't it follow that if you start with a closed face and swing the same way you hit a shot even lower and with more hook than a duck? assistance please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+TourSpecGolfer Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Here are a couple more visual aids to better understand what DM is saying: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lidolegend Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Here is another way to make DMs point. We are not talking about "open at impact" We are talking about a driver which has an "open face angle" "Open at impact" adds loft - i don't care what ANYONE says . . . But if a driver with an "open face angle" is swung through the ball so the face is "square to the target line" at impact, the "actual loft" of the driver MUST be REDUCED. -Ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougf Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I've been hearing and reading about open face driver will hit the ball lower for a while by now. I'm just wondering , who the hell said this first? Is it coming from a rumors or legit sources?As far as I know "most" of the tour player like to have the face open so they will have a power fade shot without adjusting their swing. Let's keep a healthy discussion on this issue OK! :) Thanks ! Joe :) Joe If you have an open faced driver and the player squares it up, you dynamically have less loft. A closed face driver, squared up will effectively have more loft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jboy Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 .... and these pictures are of ???? Vijays hands ???? That just doesn't look right, no way should the hand be coming off the grip like that ! In the top picture he looks like ET swinging the club! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tourtunedgolf Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 .... and these pictures are of ???? Vijays hands ????That just doesn't look right, no way should the hand be coming off the grip like that ! In the top picture he looks like ET swinging the club! There was a blurb in golf digest about it a month or 2 ago, maybe in Leadbetter's section. He said it was definitely a positive aspect of Vjay's swing, shows that he's accelerating through the ball (obviously) and has completely released the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsg4tch Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Joe, The TM tour van guy explained it this way. He said there was no consistently accurate method of measuring face angle, not even with the big$$$ they have to buy machines. He can generally eyeball an open/square/closed face but it's just an approximation. Here's how they do it: The new tour heads are virtually square-faced as they are "hand-picked" for loft within a tolerance. He picks a head and measures the loft(their loft measuring device was very cool). If the measured loft is equal +/- to the marked loft, the face is considered square. Now, to bend open the face angle they put the head in a little box-like device that has a mold of the head inside. They heat the hosel using what looked like some type of induction heating device and bend the head(breaking heads often). They know by feel/experience what the range is they are looking for. After bending, they re-measure the loft: the difference in loft degrees indicates how open the face is. He measured and eyeballed the marked 9.5°/static 10.4° head we put the 26.3 in and said it was close-faced, which is how it played. Here's how he makes Vijay's drivers: He hand picks a 10.5° to as close to 11° as possible and bends the face open 3.5°!!! He said he breaks/trashes heads regularly. Evidently, Vijay gets a kick out of watching him bend/build his drivers. Here's an explanation of face angle/effective loft that's simple enough for even me to understand: "If a driver has 10* loft and has a 1* closed face angle it will play like it has 11*. The reference in this case is what would the loft measure if the club face was rotated to a square position. If it is set in the gauge at 1* closed you would have to rotate the club face open to get it back to square. The relationship to face angle and loft is 1 to 1. 1* face angle equals 1* loft. In this case this club would measure 11* if the club face was in a square position. If a driver has 10* loft and has a 1* open face angle it will play like it has 9* loft. Again the reference is what would the loft measure if the club face was rotated to a square position. In this case you would have to close the club face 1* to get it back to square and in the square position the loft would measure 9*. --Jim Yachinich, Golfworks" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FAQ Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Joe, The TM tour van guy explained it this way. He said there was no consistently accurate method of measuring face angle, not even with the big$$$ they have to buy machines. He can generally eyeball an open/square/closed face but it's just an approximation. Here's how they do it: The new tour heads are virtually square-faced as they are "hand-picked" for loft within a tolerance. He picks a head and measures the loft(their loft measuring device was very cool). If the measured loft is equal +/- to the marked loft, the face is considered square. Now, to bend open the face angle they put the head in a little box-like device that has a mold of the head inside. They heat the hosel using what looked like some type of induction heating device and bend the head(breaking heads often). They know by feel/experience what the range is they are looking for. After bending, they re-measure the loft: the difference in loft degrees indicates how open the face is. He measured and eyeballed the marked 9.5°/static 10.4° head we put the 26.3 in and said it was close-faced, which is how it played. Here's how he makes Vijay's drivers: He hand picks a 10.5° to as close to 11° as possible and bends the face open 3.5°!!! He said he breaks/trashes heads regularly. Evidently, Vijay gets a kick out of watching him bend/build his drivers. Here's an explanation of face angle/effective loft that's simple enough for even me to understand: "If a driver has 10* loft and has a 1* closed face angle it will play like it has 11*. The reference in this case is what would the loft measure if the club face was rotated to a square position. If it is set in the gauge at 1* closed you would have to rotate the club face open to get it back to square. The relationship to face angle and loft is 1 to 1. 1* face angle equals 1* loft. In this case this club would measure 11* if the club face was in a square position. If a driver has 10* loft and has a 1* open face angle it will play like it has 9* loft. Again the reference is what would the loft measure if the club face was rotated to a square position. In this case you would have to close the club face 1* to get it back to square and in the square position the loft would measure 9*. --Jim Yachinich, Golfworks" That's a very good, clear explanation. You can actually see loft decrease if you rotate a head open. Thanks for that post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky3 Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I've seen discussions on this subject before but couldn't really get my pea-brain round........ thanks to all the explanations above, 'the penny has finally dropped!' ...... and to those that posted the pics, they really helped with the explanation. :D Great thread all! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemolitionMan Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 OMG!!! I need to find a new club builder.What on earth are you talking about? You are going to confuse people. While your logic holds true based on your garage science, you are discounting the point of the way the club is setup at impact. I will attempt to explain what another caller tried to tell you in VJ's example. VJ has major forearm rotation and hand action through the ball. If I showed you a picture of him just after impact, his hand looks like it is going to fly off the club and is wrist is so torqued you think it's broken. So let's go with the idea that VJ will square the face at impact, no problem, maybe even shut it a bit. I don't know what loft his driver is, but at 9.5* and 2* open, he will actually get an effective loft of 7.5* if impacting with a square face. Why? Because you use loft as you rotate an open faced club into a square position. Keep in mind, loft is measured with the club in the intended start/setup position. So the 9.5 represents the head sitting on the ground with an open face to target. If you rotated the club to square up the face with the target line at address, you just lost loft. Try it, it's easy to see at 2*, not as easy at 1*. The converse is true too for hackers who play closed Callaways or Cobras. If the loft is measured at 9* with a 2* closed face. At address, the driver points left. If you rotated it open 2* to square up to the target, you would notice the loft increasing. This change in loft at impact is more of a driver/fairway wood issue. If you rotated the face slightly open or closed to square up a driver, the face still points at the target. So you are changing effective loft. But try this with a wedge. When you open up a wedge to increase loft for a higher pitch shot or a flop. Where does the face point? Open wedge face points to the right, not to the target, so you adjust your stance to get a ballflight on target. You do not have to do that with driver. So back to the original issue. An open face on the driver in and of itself does not allow for a lower ball flight. But a tour pro swing at impact squares up the face at impact and decreases the loft producing lower ballflight. An amateur hits the high right shot because they cannot rotate fast enough to square up the face at least one more degree than where it started. Demoman, help me see if I've got this right..so by rotating the clubhead just prior to striking the ball that open face and becomes square to closed which effectively delofts the club making the ball fly lower? so if someone who had a swing where they rotated thru like that started with a square to closed face would they not deloft that club also and hit a low screamer left? this would be because at impact the face would be more closed if I have this correct? then the reason open faces fly lower is not because it's open but because it has been swung in a manner which effectively closes up the face at impact? and why most guys can't hit open faces anywhere but high right is because they don't rotate enough thru impact... I am confused because it seems to me that if you can hit an open face lower because you deloft it during the swing then doesn't it follow that if you start with a closed face and swing the same way you hit a shot even lower and with more hook than a duck? assistance please You got it right for the most part. That's why all the BSG membership being the tour pros that they are cannot hit closed face drivers. They must have square face tour issue for fear of hooking the hell out of the ball!!! :o :o :lol: :lol: Just kidding. Sometimes I crack myself up. Anyways, you got the theory right. A driver starting at closed face has the loft stated on the club, that's how the factory would measure and stamp. Let's call that 10*. If you lined up with the face closed and over rotated to close even more at impact, you will get 9*, maybe 8*, who knows. Being that weekenders rarely over rotate, they most likely will come into the ball with the face squared up and actually get 11* or 12*. But let's not confuse face loft with talent (or lack of). If you have a big time over the top move and cast the club, who cares how much you rotate, you are not going to hit a hook. If you have a good inside path swing with a closed face and over rotate, then yes a hook is likely. Just keep in mind, some swing flaws out there can more than compensate for loft changes in the club and produce some really awful looking shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbodog Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 I've been hearing and reading about open face driver will hit the ball lower for a while by now. I'm just wondering , who the hell said this first? Is it coming from a rumors or legit sources?As far as I know "most" of the tour player like to have the face open so they will have a power fade shot without adjusting their swing. Let's keep a healthy discussion on this issue OK! :) Thanks ! Joe :) Hey Joe! You and I talked about this before and you thought I was crazy... :wink: The first time I heard this was when I was trying Ping TiSi & TiSi TEC's a few years ago. I was trying to find the right hosel configuration (what a pain!). It never made sense to me. But... I went through about 7 or 8 of these drivers experimenting with different hosels. I can tell you that when I hit two identical drivers and one had an open face while other was square, the open-faced one went lower. I never believed it until I did this testing, but I have believed it ever since then. I still don't completely understand the concept, but think is has something to do with laying the open club behind the ball and subconsciously closing it before you start your swing (NOT during) to be perpendicular to the target line. Regards, Don whassup, don? i'll back you up as far as the 'who said it first' part - ping was the one that first made a declaration on this as far as i can remember. i remember going through the exact same thing as you with 4 different ping heads. i think ping even has a faq on their website about the effect of opening and closing faces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jboy Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Tourtuned, I'd disagree with Leadbetter, Vijays hands (note plural) the left is still on the club and hasn't rotated as much as people would think, his right hand has come off the club (the palm certainaly has) but if you look at the writing on the grip, I can't see this big rotation that his withered ET hand would suggest. Both hands work in tandem, had there been a over pornounced roll, you'd see it in a hinged left wrist of rolled with knuckles pointing to the ground. Maybe the camera is lying but I'd love to see high speed stills of his hands coming through the impact zone, I'd call it 'Vijays Hand Jive' if his set up is normal then his hand is slipping around the club or moving somewhere, both hands aren't working in tandem as the left looks Okay in these shots. How a teaching Pro can say that's good is beyond me. Does anybody else studied this, I'd like to know why Vijay has a kack-knackered grip ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kr0nik Posted May 13, 2004 Report Share Posted May 13, 2004 Ah the old open-face, static loft, dynamic loft, deloft, yada yada discussion. Who here swings like a machine? Who here returns that club-head to the ball exactly the same time after time? Who here is so precise with their ballstriking that a 1° difference in "static" face agle makes a big difference? How wide are those muni fairways? Why do I spend so much money on golf? Where am I going with this? Now it's my turn to have a crack at this: Let's say I always measure a club on my guage with the face sitting square to the target line. Now let's say I have a driver inserted and in this case the guage reads 9°. That's 9° when clamped in square to the target line. Now when I release the clamp on my guage the face opens up 1°. In other words (this club is right handed) the face now points 1° to the right. Now I reclamp without resquaring the head and take another measurement. Now it will read 10°. Am I correct in my assumptions so far? Okay here's where it gets tricky.... :D Now I remove the club from the guage and address a ball with the club. I sole the driver with loose hands and allow it to face right 1° just like on the guage during the second measurement. It now has a static loft of 10° and the face is said to be open, yes? Okay, now swing the club back and swing it back down to the ball and through. (oooh I piped that one). At impact, because I like to rotate my arms and hands past their position at address, I have rotated the face square to my target line. So at impact the loft was 9°. It was 10° at address because it was open and 9° at impact because I squared it. My point is, if you take your loft measurement with the face square (whether it naturally sits open or closed) and at impact the face is square, the club will play to that loft. But if you meausure your loft with the face in it's natural address position and it is not square and then you square the face at impact then the loft at impact will be different. And in the case of an open-faced driver it will be lower. Again, provided you measured the loft with an open face. So, if I was so consistent that I always rotate my hands and arms at impact the same amount and that amount was say 2° too much, causing my shots to hook left then I would probably benefit from a 2° open faced club whose loft when squared up was my preferred 9°! :P You say "to-may-to" I say "to-mah-to". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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